What's your next career step? Have you ever thought about becoming a space scientist? Or working at the cutting edge of technology and design, creating gadgets that will become high street favourites? Traditionally it would be men who would say yes and pursue these careers but women are being encouraged to demonstrate their skills and prove that equality can be universal across every job sector.

Roles in the Science, Engineering and Technology (SET) industries are no longer just jobs for the boys. Improved working environments and more flexible working hours means young women or those returning after motherhood have more opportunities and better working practices than ever before.

But progress still needs to be made. In SET, women still make up only 18% of the workforce. This means that the UK is failing to make the most of the talents of over half the population despite the fact there is a skills shortage within SET. It’s clear that change is needed.

To tell us how this will be achieved are three women who have bucked the national trend and proved that women can be successful in these fields. They'll be fielding your questions about how you can get involved and find the dream job that you might have thought out of your reach. And yes what it's like to be a space scientist!

Maggie Philbin, former Tomorrow's World presenter, Maggie Aderin, Space Scientist and Annette Williams, Director of the UKRC join us live on Wednesday 28th November at 3pm to discuss how to improve opportunities for women in SET.

H: Lis Speight, host
M: Maggie Philbin
A: Annette Williams, Director UKRC
MA: Maggie Aderin, Space Scientist

H: Hello and welcome to the Lifestyle Show, I'm Lis Speight. So, what's your next career step? Have you ever thought about becoming a space scientist, or how about working at the cutting edge of technology, designing gadgets that could soon be hits on the high street? Now you may think that these sorts of careers have traditionally appealed to men, but it's no longer just about jobs for the boys, there's a real drive at the moment to try to get more women into the SET industries - science, engineering and technology, and with better working environments and more flexible working hours, there's never been a better time for younger women, and women returning to work after having children, to land their dream job in this field. I'm delighted to say that to talk about women in these industries we have three real trail blazers with us today – we have first of all Maggie Philbin

M: Hello

H: Former Tomorrow's World presenter, lovely to see you, thanks for coming in. Next one along is Annette Williams

A: Hi

H: Hello, director of UKRC which is the resource centre for women in these SET industries, and last but not least we have another Maggie, Maggie Aderin, whose a space scientist no less – there we are, that's impressive isn't it? Now we've got lots and lots to talk about, but before we get stuck in, I'd just like to say that this is a live show and we're interactive as well so if you've got a question for any of our fantastic panel then all you have to do is type your name and your question in a box that's on the screen and press submit, and by the wonders of modern technology, hopefully designed by a woman, it will come through to us here in the studio and we'll try to get through as many as we can. So, get your questions in but before we get cracking on your questions just like to say to Maggie first of all, we've only got 18% of the whole of the SET workforce – only 18% of them are women – are you surprised about that, because you've been in the science world for quite a long time now if you don't mind me saying –

M: Yes a long time

H: Are you surprised things haven't changed more than that?

M: Well do you know I am surprised yes I am surprised, I mean I started work on Tomorrow's World in 1982, so that's 25 years ago and then this year in January I started covering technology for BBC news

H: Right

M: And I received emails from all over the world from –

H: How lovely

M: It was, it was wonderful, and they were from people saying “oh the reason I went into science was because of Tomorrow's World” which was immensely, immensely sort of flattering, but there was often a ‘but' that came through from women saying but I no longer work in science, and the reasons were different, some women had found that they'd gone into a company, they'd looked at the structure and realised that perhaps the promotion opportunities weren't there

H: Right

M: Or they'd had a happy time with a company, they'd left to have a baby and then four years later they realised it was very difficult to come back in

H: Right

M: Certainly at a wage which was attractive to them, or they'd looked at the work prospects and they thought I'd be better off having my own company, and they'd set their own company up, and I was really quite astonished because it seemed as though there were certain cultures, in some cases very hidden cultures in companies which was stopping women from moving up the science ladder,

H: And in this day and age that's not good enough is it?

M: Well it isn't no, and it is surprising – 18.8% of women in the SET sectors, and yet if you follow them through schools, girls are better than boys at every single science exam between the ages of 11 and 18

H: Wow

M: It's nothing to do with any kind of innate ability

H: So what's going wrong?

M: Well exactly, what's going wrong. Moving on to Annette

H: Tell us a little bit about what your work involves then

A: Ok well the resource centre is actually set up by the government in 2004 but it actually built on a lot of work that we'd been doing for a number of years, so the Jive Project has been one of those big national projects, so the resource centre, the UKRC is there to support women, particularly those who want to return to science and technology careers, but it's also there to actually support employers as well

H: Right

A: Because actually I think just to follow on from what Maggie said we actually want to see a change in workplace cultures that will actually retain women and enable them to progress – it's not just about women getting in, it's actually also about –

H: Keeping them in

A: Keeping them in and progressing those that are there

H: So have working environments got better, have hours become more flexible, I said that in my intro didn't I, have they or have we still got a long way to go?

A: Yes we've still got some way to go but we are seeing those changes and we're certainly seeing a wider understanding of the need to be able to do that, and I think the more that men are actually asking – making lifestyle choices, wanting gap years, want to be able to work flexibly

M: Looking after their children

A: Looking after the kids, I mean yes that still is in a minority, but increasingly men are actually wanting to play their part in parenting, and that can only really help because traditionally it's been women that have been wanting to work part time and flexibly for a number of years and actually when they do so they often have to work in low paid, low skilled jobs and trade down when they come back into the labour force after taking a career break

H: All of those need addressing now. Somebody that doesn't seem to have had any trouble is Maggie Aderin, now you're a space scientist, that sounds very fabulous, do you sit all day gazing into space, that's my perfect job

MA: Thinking deep thoughts!

H: What do you actually do?

MA: I call myself an instrumentationalist because I make instruments, and the instruments I'm making at the moment go up into space

H: Right

MA: And the things I'm doing are instruments that monitor climate change, so they might measure wind speeds through the atmosphere, across the globe or actually look at plants that are photosynthesising, because then they take up carbon dioxide, and that all sort of ties in with the carbon chain and how –

H: Really interesting stuff

MA: Our climate's going to change in the future – yes

H: And how have you found it as a woman in the SET workplace?

MA: Fantastic. Well I think I'm doing a job that I really love, because even as a small child I was fascinated by space and so being able to do – work in something that I so enjoy – but along the way everybody's been incredibly encouraging

H: Right

MA: And there are difficulties and sometimes I'm the only person working – in a meeting I'm the only female there

H: Right

MA: But you can use that to your advantage sometimes

H: Yes. Well you're certainly not a shrinking violet, let's put it that way. Ok let's move on to some questions and Natalie's written in and she wants to know “hi Maggie” – both of you I think, and Annette – “what do you think that this field – why do you think that this field of expertise is still the male domain?” Sorry “Why aren't there more women involved, do you think?”

M: Well it's a whole – as we're hearing – it's a whole complicated set of reasons, it's not just one thing. You can't just say well the reason is this –

H: And then you could solve it and it'd be –

M: No no

A: There's no key that's going to unlock it

M: It's really difficult. To some extent it can start at school, where – I mean now look you've got a fabulous job, now how many careers advisors in schools would be capable about talking about your job

MA: Well quite

M: Do you know what I mean?

MA: But it's true

M: You know, very few people would know, and I mean there are thousands of different jobs in science and engineering and technology and until we have lots and lots and lots of careers officers who are really well informed, I mean some are aren't they –

MA: Yes

M: And some are brilliant

MA: Yes

M: You know you can't say that they're not there, but then how can you inspire children to think oh a space scientist, that would be absolutely fantastic

H: That could be me

MA: And it's possible, yes

A: I mean it is about that obviously but it's also about what follows through from that as well because it's no good just exposing kids and girls to those careers if then what they get outside of that exposure is to reinforce those stereotypes of what occupations are suitable for girls and what are suitable for boys and Maggie you've been using a fantastic illustration of the girls and the bridge and parents –

M: Yes because it starts in the home as well with parents

MA: Yes absolutely

M: Because if parents aren't aware of the opportunities and the way that there are jobs out there that girls can – that are not only going to be really good for girls, but are going to be very profitable as well

H: Yes well that's it, if there's the money in it then it all helps doesn't it?

M: Yes

H: There's a big pay gap as well still isn't there – we won't go into that

A: Yes there is

M: You've got a daughter haven't you?

H: Yes I have

M: Right, so chances are right when you're sort of going along with your daughter and you'll be out on a walk one day and you'll say, I don't know – the analogy is you'll come to a bridge right and she might go “mummy that's so big, look at it” you know, then if it was a dad with his son, he would say something like “and you could build one of those one day”

H: Yes whereas I wouldn't

M: But you might not – yes exact – and it's tiny little things like that

H: Oh it starts very early on doesn't it?

M: And then as you say it continues right the way through, you know through school, through universities

MA: But you see one of the things I'm doing, I'm getting sponsored by the government to go out into schools, and when I go out to schools it's quite interesting because I think the difficulty is if I studied accountancy people would think I'd be an accountant, or medicine they'd think I'd go into medicine, but if you do physics for instant which is what I studied the world is your oyster

H: Yes

MA: You could be measuring something at the very edge of the universe or some infinitesimal particle at SERN so what we need to do is go out and sell science, and scientists need to do this, I'm a female scientist, I love my job, this is what I do

H: I'm not a boffin sitting –

MA: In an ivory tower, but until we go out and tell people the sort of wonderful careers they can have, people can't consider them because they don't know what the options are

H: Yes. Well we're talking about that actually and Sammy has written in and I presume it's a she, wants to know “can you give me a few examples of the kinds of jobs we're talking about in the SET industries?” Annette what would you say to that?

A: Well –

H: Where do you start?

A: Could use a few now – we've got space scientist, civil engineers who build bridges, software engineers who work with computers, computer scientists, technicians, bench researchers – it's just enormous actually

MA: Vast

H: There's a big scale in those jobs so you might not necessarily want to be right at the top but you could be someone working in a team and there are different levels?

A: Yes that's right, yes

MA: Design – all sorts of things

M: And you don't necessarily have to go to university

A: No

M: You could do, you know further education

A: Yes, have an apprenticeship

M: Yes become a technician – I think that's something else which tends, doesn't it – not to be appreciated that this wide variety of jobs exists at every single level

H: Level yes, so you don't necessarily need a phd like you've got

M: No

H: But talking about qualifications actually and Sarah's written in and she wants to know “when I was at school no one told me about careers in any of these industries” – which is what we were talking about just now – “are there advisors now who would discuss more varied career opportunities?” So if you're school can't help you, where do you go from there?

A: Yes I mean – yes – the resource centre, the UK Resource Centre is really help – really supporting exactly this, supporting women into science careers to open up these fields to them, but I think I suppose what I want to say is it's not just about careers information, and it's not just about attitudes of parents influencing those choices, it's also about the experience of women working in those sectors as well, and it's also about the visibility of successful women

H: Right

A: Making them more visible – that's really important and –

H: Having good role models

A: Having good role models, yes

H: Like Maggie here

A: Yes well absolutely yes

MA: I think one of the problems is some barriers are external and we have to overcome them, but many barriers are internal, because when I go out to schools I say, you know I'm a rocket scientist you know, the girls say “ I couldn't do that” and I say but why? And I call it the video player syndrome, because I think for instance when we're at home, generally a boy will have a go, and even if he doesn't know what he's doing he'll have a go, but a girl will say oh I don't know, so I won't try it. And more girls have to get up and try it

H: They may be a bit more frightened are they –

MA: A bit more frightened –

H: Of failure or –

MA: Yes –

H: Frightened that the boys might be better but that's not necessarily the case

MA: At home there's no one to compare with, it's just having a go

H: Yes

M: Do know, this extends doesn't it, all the way through to job applications because –

MA: Yes

M: Because I mean this is proven that if you have a job application and it's got sort of 5 must-haves that if a bloke sees it and if he's got say 2 or 3 of those he'll sort of think great, I'm going to go for it, whereas a woman will go – no I've not got that, I'll wait till I've got that

H: We're a bit too perfectionist, boys just get in there

MA: We put ourselves down

H: And also worried about failing, I know that's one of my big problems actually

A: Just to finish off for this particular question, the Science Council have developed a fabulous website which is careersfromscience which should actually answer most of the questions that she's been asking

H: Right

A: Where do you get that information, what are the different jobs that are available, what qualifications do I actually need to get into those occupations

MA: Also institutes as well like the Institute of Physics, the Institute of Chemistry and –

H: The site – the internet rather has got a lot of information

M: Yes it has yes

H: And we'll be giving you some website addresses at the end of the show as well where you can get extra information

M: And also maybe alongside finding out about all of the opportunities, I mean I've got no idea how old Sammy is, but if she is still young enough to go out and get work experience

H: Yes that's a good idea

M: I think it's about being really quite dogged in your determination to get the work experience that you want, you know and to think big, you know think I would really like to be – whether it's a space scientist, you know or whether it's a nuclear physicist or whatever it is and think right I want to go there

H: I can do that

MA: And it's possible

H: Let's just crack on with some more questions actually because we're really cracking through this show and we haven't got through very many. Right Rammy's written in and she – Rammy sorry wants to know “what qualifications and experience are required to get into this position working as a space scientist?” That's aimed at you I think Maggie

MA: Yes

H: What have you got under your belt, quite a lot I think

MA: Right, so at school I sort of did my GSCEs and I mainly focused on science and with space science it can have a number of different disciplines, so I sort of studied physics, chemistry, biology and maths, and the maths is quite important because if it's engineering or science, the maths is sort of the language of those, so that's very helpful. Then I went to university and did my degree in physics, and then stayed on and did a phd which of a –

H: Because you're really clever!

MA: No because I was enjoying it so much actually, and one other thing to say is a phd is very different because when you do your degree you're sort of taught and it's very formal, when you do a PhD it's sort of ok, go out and investigate something

H: Yes

MA: And that was a fantastic opportunity, and just – as we were saying earlier there were lots and lots of different things that people can do in the space industry, there's things like computer-aided design, so if you went and did a HND and things like that, that's actually sort of designing components that go into space instrumentation

H: But you didn't do a PhD to necessarily get into that –

MA: No not at all, you have a wealth of different people working together, and it's very important to bring those different disciplines together as well because to make a spaceship you need lots of different things

A: And the different skills

MA: Yes

M: And it's a huge thing, I mean like on – when they had the Apollo program in the ‘60s

MA: Yes

M: Across America there were 400,000 people working on Apollo, so that gives you an idea of the number of jobs that there are available

H: Exactly, there's something for everybody really isn't there?

MA: Yes

H: Cracking on with some more questions actually, Fiona wants to know “how do men treat women in science, surely it's difficult to get them to change their outlooks?” It's all very well getting the girls to be a bit more positive but what about the men in science, has anyone got a view on that?

M: Yes well we're working on that

MA: I think it's a perception, because I must admit, I went to girls' schools when I was young, but I work in a totally male-dominated industry now, although more and more women are coming through, and you'd expect it to feel maybe a little odd but it's not. I think science and engineering does that because people are excited about the science and about the engineering, and that's what gets them –

H: It doesn't matter whether you're male or female, that just goes by the by

MA: No. Well that's been my experience, I know other people have had other things, but I think it is possible to put it to one side, and it depends on who you're working with, and also as time goes on, my colleagues are a similar age to me and they have a similar outlook so –

H: Yes and you can change it from within hopefully as well, if you get in there you can change other people's attitudes

A: Yes you can. I think one of the biggest testing times is when, if women leave to have a career break then it's quite difficult to get back in

H: Yes

A: The technology moves on

H: Yes that's true

A: And it's very had to reengage with these careers, as it is with a lot of careers, but particularly with science and technology and I think –

H: Because things are moving so quickly

A: Because there's less accommodation

MA: But they do have – I think what we should fix on is the transferable skills, so for instance what I do is a lot of project management, so I can manage up to sort of 17 people on a project, and with some science you need to stay very cutting edge and know exactly what's going on, and when people have a career break, that's what makes it hard. But if you do have these transferable skills it means you can step out and step back in, but you just need to brush up on a few areas to make yourself cutting edge again

M: Some employers they will help you to get your skill base up to speed won't they?

A: Sure, yes they will yes

H: On that point actually, just try to get in one last question before we finish, we're nearly over- can you believe it? Judith's written in and she wants to know “I've been out of work for the past 7 years bringing up my kids” – not out of work, just doing a different job! “But am keen to return to work”

A: Oh yes

H: Proper work – “I only have secretarial skills and never went to university, but I really want to do something new and challenging – could I do something like this with my background?” Is there any reason why not?

A: Yes I think there's different avenues and obviously they'd have to be explored with her, but there are conversion courses that are possible at university, like Year Zero courses that can actually enable you to get on to engineering without any previous – without A levels, without science A levels, and obviously – not obviously – there are adult apprenticeships now which is fantastic and are quite a breakthrough actually to be able to get apprenticeships when you're sort of later in life, and we've got a big campaign to return qualified scientists and engineers back into the workplace

H: So it's never too late to retrain then basically?

A: Oh no no

H: And there's a whole lot of – I mean there is actually a skill shortage isn't there –

M: Absolutely yes

H: In the industry

MA: Which is fantastic for the future, for future scientists because there'll be demand, and that means salary!

A: In 2010, 97.000 more – 97,000 graduates / engineers will be required by 2010 according to the CBI

H: Wow, goodness me

A: And we know that 50,000 women who are qualified scientists and engineers are currently out of the labour force

M: And here's a final stat for you, that if we redress the balance of men and women in the science, engineering and technology sector, what that means is an additional £13 billion to the UK

H: Wow

M: Economy. It's not about one woman's wage this, it's about the economy of the whole country

H: That's incredible isn't it, but just before we go actually we've got a question in from John Parker and he wants to know, or he says “I'm a builder and I'm not sure women could do the job as well as men. Is this just political correctness gone mad?” Can we really be working in the science industry?

M: John!

A: You should take your statistics on building sites that are being run by women, that'll break –

M: Do you know what, we're laughing aren't we but this is a really common reaction

A: Yes

MA: Yes

A: Yes it is

MA: Because I think you have different people – there are some men that couldn't work in a building site

M: Absolutely

MA: Some women can't work in a building site but there are some women that can, we don't want to hold them back

H: No, no exactly just because it's the recognised thing, the done thing they don't work –

M: I mean issues for skilled women on building sites, they tend not to be actually capable of carrying all those bricks or whatever but it's when say an engineer comes to visit a site, now if it was a male engineer there would be the boots there and the hat, so she comes to put them on, there are no boots that fit and there isn't a hat that fits, and it's simple things like that –

MA: That stop –

H: But are there jobs that women can't do? In these industries? That's a bit political isn't it? But are there?

M: No of course there aren't

MA: I don't think there are, it depends on – for instance I think I could probably work on a building site, I'm fairly strong, but my younger sister isn't so that's probably not – she wouldn't be happy on a building site. So it's horses for courses, find what you enjoy, find what you're good at and then do it

H: Now finally last question from Bethany and she wants to know, “I wouldn't even know where to start to decide what kind of job will be most suited to me. Have you got any advice?”

MA: Find something you love because for me it was space, and as a kid I made my own telescope, I looked up at the stars and I was dyslexic and a kid in London, I never thought I'd make it, but I had that dream, and when you find something you can love, you can really make it

H: Yes. Annette, quick tip?

A: I suppose going back to the careers for science website, that's great in terms of information, what careers are available

H: Maggie?

M: Yes there are thousands and thousands of jobs that I've never heard of out there, and so just going and having a look, she will just be surprised by the wealth of opportunities

H: And something might just grab her interest mightn't it? Well that's all we've got time for today actually so thanks very much to our guests for coming in, Maggie Philbin, Annette Williams and Maggie Aderin, thanks so much it's been really interesting hasn't it? And if we've whet your appetite for work in the SET industries – science, engineering and technology, you can go to have a look at the websites, there's lots of information there about how to get involved, what career options to take etc etc, the first website is www.ukrc4setwomen.org, should be on the screen now. And www.jivepartners.org.uk there's loads of information on there and just remember it's not all rocket science! Thanks for watching, bye bye

Still got a question or comment?

Name

Your question Question

Enter code