Many employers may be breathing a sigh of relief that they’ve survived the past two turbulent years but the challenge now will be to keep hold of talented employees. Having scaled back on benefits like pensions, healthcare or smaller niceties like free coffee and biscuits, it’s only the stark unemployment rate that has kept their staff from walking out the front door and not returning.

But with green shoots reported more frequently in the news, businesses are now facing some tough questions. How can we keep workers engaged and happy, and make sure we have the best talent for when the upturn happens? What do employees want from work, and what can management provide them with to safeguard the next generation of business successes?

Now the HR chief for one of the world’s biggest brands (and one of the top 30 UK companies to work for) is set to reveal her top tips for creating a workplace that actually works for managers and their teams. Cath Bailey, European Head of HR for food giant Kellogg’s, will be on our live Web TV show to answer any of your questions about the small things you can do to reward employees who have stuck by your side throughout the recent months.

She’ll be joined by Helen Whitten, from work life balance organisation Positiveworks and former deputy chair of the Work Life Balance Trust, to explain how businesses of all shapes and sizes can maximise the benefits they offer by tailoring them to each employee.

So whether you’re a small business wondering how you can afford rewards to keep up motivation and performance, an FTSE-500 company interested in how award winners optimise staff relations, or a hard-working employee wanting to tell us what works for them, log on to our exclusive Web TV show and submit your questions to two of the best motivators in the country.

Cath Bailey and Helen Whitten join us live online to discuss what makes the perfect workplace.

For more information visit www.kelloggs.co.uk

I: Jayne Constantinis, interviewer
C: Cath Bailey, European Head of HR, Kellogg’s
H: Helen Whitten, Positiveworks

I: Hello and welcome to the Business Show, I’m Jayne Constantinis. Now many employers may be breathing a sigh of relief that they’ve survived the past two turbulent years but the challenge now will be to keep hold of talented employees. With green shoots reported more frequently in the news, businesses are now facing some tough questions. How can employees be kept happy and engaged, and how can businesses make sure they have the best talent for when the upturn begins? So whether you’re a small business wondering how you can afford rewards to keep up motivation and performance, or a FTSE 500 company interested in optimising staff relations, or a hard-working employee wanting to share your experiences, keep watching because today I’m joined by Helen Whitten from Positiveworks, and Cath Bailey whose the European Head of HR at Kellogg’s. Welcome to the show, and of course we’re live, so if you’ve got a question for either of our guests then type it in the box on your screen, send it to us – with your name of course – and we’ll get through as many as we can during the course of the show. Cath, Kellogg’s carried out some research into the workplace

C: Yes

I: Why did you decide to do that?

C: Well I guess we have a highly engaged workforce but we’re always looking for innovative ways of engaging more. So we wanted to get a sense check of in the nation, what is it that people are looking for from an employer, from a work environment, and that’s what the research enabled us to find out

I: And was there – was there one key finding?

C: Yes interestingly the real big insight, certainly for younger – the younger generation – was that it’s not money that really motivates but actually more of a work / life balance

I: Gosh that’s a surprise to me. Helen in your business do you find the same thing?

H: Yes I’m a coach working specifically to help people and organisations achieve work / life balance, achieve performance through work / life balance, and I certainly find that in almost every organisation, it’s a big shift, a mental shift because managers very frequently think that give them more money and they’ll work harder, but really what happens is the employees want time – time is a money currency these days and so if you allow employees to take a little bit more control of how they structure their working day, it keeps them much happier

C: Absolutely

H: And it keeps them motivated

I: But presumably a work / life balance – it’s a phrase that’s much used now isn’t it –

C: Yes

I: Is – means different things – means a different thing to different people?

C: Yes absolutely and I think as an employer you need to be able to offer that flexibility. People have different needs, different circumstances, so they want flexible working but not always for the same reason, so you know we offer you know, flexitime so people can do a late start if they want to take their kids to school, or actually an early finish if they’ve got parents that they need to look after sort of after work, so for me it’s about offering a tailored and flexible range of benefits in order to meet everybody’s needs

I: But can most businesses offer that? I mean what about productivity?

H: Productivity has been shown by many research studies actually either to stay the same or go up, so it doesn’t necessarily have any detrimental affect at all, and quite often people save money by saving on overtime, they also, as I think Kellogg do, they make sure that there are core hours, if they have to do manufacturing and so forth that they have core hours at which there is a core of the staff there, and then some people will come in early and some people will come in late and you don’t waste time that way

I: In fact you’ve almost answered Adrian’s question, he’s a recruitment consultant and he says everybody’s talking about flexible working, especially his candidates. He says it’s the main reason people leave their jobs, that’s borne out of what you’ve said. “Is there a proven link to productivity, until then I’m not sure employers will really go for it.” I mean if everybody has flexible working and their own individual working pattern, for some industries it is going to be difficult isn’t it to make all the pieces of the jigsaw fit together?

C: I think you have to tailor it for your organisation, so for example in our manufacturing plants we do have fixed shifts, but they do get a good chunk of time off sort of as part of that shift pattern. You know in our commercial business I guess we’ve got more flexibility to do that, but so I think for me it’s taking a really sort of – look at what you do internally, thinking about how you could match flexible working to your business

I: Just going back to the research again, curious to know if there were any differences – it was a sort of wish list wasn’t it, of the perfect working environment. Any differences between what men and women wanted?

C: Go on

H: Well there were a few in the sense that women were quite happy to have maybe some on-site massage and perhaps beauty treatments and things, and guys wanted to have plasma screens full of football, you know if there was a big match. Now one can regard that as a dream, however many organisations are in fact offering this, because what they realise is when there’s a big match on, the guys go off anyway and / or they kind of tap into their computer, so why not make it something that is there and transparent, because otherwise they lie, as do women quite often if they have to go to the hairdresser or they have to go and do some kind of doctor’s appointment or whatever. Quite often people lie and that’s not good because you lie in one area, you lie in another, so it’s better in fact for the organisation to make it transparent and then it’s also clear that people have to make up that time and make sure that they’ve got their outputs done

I: This came up, didn’t it the last time we nearly got – we nearly won the World Cup and we got through – and there were matches on Mondays and so on, and there were big debates then, weren’t there about whether companies were going to give people the day off or bring screens into the office or –

C: That’s right yes

I: Or whatever

C: Yes

I: Karen Brooker has picked up on this point. She says “I’ve heard of companies giving birthdays off, and duvet days –

C: Yes

I: That doesn’t mean cleaning your duvet I guess – “do these sort of things work?” How far do you go? I mean do you have manicure days? Could do with one but –

C: I guess if you’ve got things like – I mean we have flexitime so people can accrue hours, so if some weeks they need to work longer hours then they can take some time off when it’s a bit quieter, so I think you can give them the flexibility then to use that accrued time in any way they want to do. So if it’s – you know – birthday they want to do, or some Christmas shopping, you know let them do that. So for me it’s all about giving them that flexibility for them to choose how they want to spend their time

H: But duvet days sounds a crazy idea sometimes however what I would say is that very often when people get colds or flu, they are the most contagious when the first get it, and also then if they feel they must come into the office because there’s a sort of presenty-ism culture they then manage to spread it all the way round the office, then the partners get it, then the children get it, then the children can’t go to crèche and so it’s a circular sort of problem really, and very often if you do take one day off at the beginning of a cold or a flu, quite often you get better the next day, and it allows your body just to have that natural ability to heal itself

I: Ok. Mary has raised an interesting point. Mary says she’s been in her place of work for 3 years, and the culture has changed dramatically recently. There’s more pressure to be seen to be working long hours and going above and beyond for the business, but she doesn’t feel that her employer is rewarding or recognising her efforts enough. She doesn’t want to leave, not sure how to make work life any more enjoyable. What do you suggest? Do you think this is to do with the recession then? She says recently

C: It could be, I mean it could be a number of things. Sometimes the change of leadership can drive that so it could be anything. I guess we’d need to understand a bit more about it, but I think it’s – you know sitting down and thinking about what it is that she really wants, what does she think the benefits would be for her for the organisation, and actually then talking to her manager about that with some suggestions about how we can make it work

I: But isn’t there a culture of fear? If you have a manager whose a – you know a hard driver, and you’re asking for what may be perceived as – you know a softer regime – people are worried about losing their jobs aren’t they? How do you get round that?

H: Well I think that she would probably need to put some kind of business case and demonstrate the impact to her productivity of one way or the other way. If she’s de-motivated and if she’s talented, then she has always got the option of going somewhere else, and yet if she wants to stay where she is, it does require that she has a really good and open conversation with this manager, and it’s sometimes worthwhile also just finding out how other people you know – whether this is a general thing, whether it’s her personal relationship with him – or her – and see what that is as well

I: It’s – she talked about the culture. The culture, the atmosphere – has got to come from the top hasn’t it?

C: Absolutely yes

I: How have you at Kellogg’s managed to create that culture?

C: Yes I mean I think we’re lucky in a lot of ways because there’s a lot of heritage with our culture. People have always been at the centre of the Kellogg culture, but we do invest a lot of time in leadership development – when people join the organisation we talk about our values, we talk about what’s expected, and people are recognised and rewarded for demonstrating that, so I think that has to play through, so it’s not just about results, but actually about how we treat the people who work for us as well, and for me if you get culture and engagement right, and you’re absolutely right it does need to come from the top, then that does drive performance, so you know one leads through to the other

I: Yes. Jessica has sent us a comment – she’s a mum working part-time, she keeps “reading in the media how by working I’m damaging my children’s development chances, but I find it hard convincing successive bosses that working with me – working with me around school times really will make me a more motivated and productive employee. Any ideas?” This must be a very, very common issue.

H: Well there is plenty of research out there to show that if you give employees their own control of their working day, that allows them to come in and not be worrying about the children, not be worrying about home responsibilities, if the boiler’s broken down or you know, we all – whoever you are you all have problems that are home problems and I think an awful lot of the working day is still structured as it was 100 years ago, assuming that somebody’s at home doing all of these things, and organisations and management – and Kellogg’s is one of the innovative ones who have – who have realised that actually life isn’t like that any more, so it’s almost like bringing him or her up-to-date, whoever this manager is, and helping them to see that if she were able to structure her day in this way she would come, she would only have one thing on her mind, whereas at the moment she’s got several things on her mind, including resentment, and that doesn’t really help her to perform at her best

I: Yes

H: So it’s really working together to find out what would work for them – for the organisation and for her, and usually when you have those sorts of conversations there are solutions to be found

I: Again it’s having the conversation

H: It’s having the conversation

I: And of course she’s got that thing that we working mothers have – she’s got the guilt trip as well

H: Yes exactly

I: Do you know, I read a quote today that I thought was – it said that guilt is to motherhood what wine is to grapes! Can’t have one without the other can you?

H: Exactly

I: How do we compare with other countries in Europe? You know I’m talking about where we are now, not where we want to be. How bad are we?

C: Well in some ways I think we’re ahead of the game in some areas, I think you know some of the continental European countries are struggling sort of – you know having the same kinds of challenges, and they’re sort of taking steps to address that, so for example you know in our sort of business in Italy, the lunch time social aspect is really, really important, so people are still doing that. They might be doing it in a little bit of a shorter time, but they still want to have that as part of their culture, and even if that means that they might have to stay a little bit later in the evening, whereas for example in Spain, what they’re likely to do there is perhaps work longer hours, sort of Monday to Thursday, and then finish early on a Friday, so you know I sort of look at some of the things that we’re doing here and I think well actually we’re leading the way in some ways, but I think everybody’s really trying to sort of balance you know what is the right thing to do?

I: Yes

H: Yes and I’ve worked with companies all over the world, and these problems are absolutely universal and global, but there is a saying at the moment in the city that the French are the only people having lunch –

I: And all of August off!

H: Well – and all of August off! But you know there’s a lot to be said for having lunch, and one of the key findings of the survey, the Kellogg’s survey was the fact that people absolutely resent and hate having lunchtime meetings

C: Yes

H: Where they can’t get a decent lunch break and they can’t get some exercise. So I think that some of these European countries have got it right, but it is slipping for them too, so in Spain one always imagines that the Spanish go to sleep for two hours in the afternoon – it doesn’t happen any more

I: Yes

H: And they are just as stressed as we are actually

I: Well that’s good to know because I thought we were much worse in the UK!

C: But I think you’re right on the holiday situation, because I think they take holidays in the summer for slightly longer, so I think they’ll do a two or three week break rather than a one or two week –

H: And I also don’t think that they’re as Blackberry mad as we are so you know if you take two weeks off and you really do switch off, you revert to a really de-stressed way of living, relaxed and refreshed, and you return to work much more refreshed

I: Yes it’s the curse of the Blackberry! Dan has said – “is flexible working suitable for small businesses?” And he’s editor of businesszone.co.uk. A much bigger impact presumably on a small team? Can they do it – can they offer it?

H: Definitely, definitely – I’ve worked with and alongside many small businesses, I run my own small business and we’ve always had part-time working and flexible working. My original I suppose interest in this came from my father who ran a small cork manufacturing business – he often employed people on a part-time business and he would quite frequently say actually it’s the part-timers who do a full day’s work in 3 days and they are so loyal, and so happy to have this ability to structure their time

I: But that kind of environment – my father also ran a small business and it was very much a family affair, but hasn’t that culture disappeared now? Isn’t the workplace a much more cut-throat environment than it ever used to be?

C: I guess I can talk from my own experience, I think in our business I think one of the things that makes it very different, very special is that it is about relationships, we’re a global organisation but actually with a family feel. So you know we are – you know all over the world, but people tend to know each other and I think actually that’s the piece that people are looking for. That came through the research, that that social environment that the ability to sort of make friends, take time out for coffee, you know go to the gym –

I: To belong. To belong.

H: To belong yes

I: That’s really important yes.

H: And especially the young who want, who like their social time, and to be able to – you know as Kellogg do have gym and cafe and bar and that sort of thing where they can get together. I think the sense of belonging is enormously important and I think actually one of the reasons that people can’t get off their Blackberry is it gives them a sense of belonging – somebody needs me, somebody wants me – you know. But that becomes addictive and can be negative

I: Yes and in fact Paula has sent a message saying “I own a small business, am I really expected to implement the same strategy as someone like Kellogg’s?” What we’re saying is it’s about the kind of – small – small mentality isn’t it, and all you’ve done is expand on that to a big organisation?

C: Yes absolutely and I think you know as Helen said, you’re a small organisation obviously you might not be able to do everything that we do, but it’s take a look at what you can do, because even just small things like you know a slightly later start so that somebody can take the children to school would actually make that person perform much better

I: Yes

C: Knowing that they’ve been able to do that so I think it’s look at what you can do and offer some flexibility so it’s not a one-size-fits-all – you know take the views of everybody involved and sort of see what works best

I: Yes. Paula you don’t have to build a gym – that’s the good news! Thank you for that question. Let’s take another – loads of questions coming in – editor of HR magazine.co.uk – “with training and employment benefit budgets tightening, what can HR directors do right now to ensure as many talented employees as possible are engaged with the business and prepared to stay with their current employer long into recovery?” So we’re back to the old money issue again?

C: Yes. But if you think about some of the things we’ve been talking about today, they don’t necessarily take money to make that happen, you know it’s about creating the right climate, you know so making sure that leaders are keeping staff engaged, it’s about you know ensuring that there’s a social opportunity so for relationships, so even just sort of having a team lunch, actually can really engage people and I think it’s also about talking about the business and getting people involved with the business, feeling really proud to work for the organisation and recognising their role in it, because I think the more engagement you get the more you enhance the minds, and the more chances you’ve got of those people staying

H: And I think managers can also share their own experiences. Sometimes managers seem to imagine that they’ve got to have it all right, and my life is fine and all the rest of it, but a lot of them are also like ducks on the water, kind of paddling fast and have a lot of pressures on them, and sometimes when they share that, and also share what they’re trying to do within the organisation, what they’re trying to do with the staff, that really makes a big difference because all of a sudden you have a team concept of – oh right well we’re in this together, let’s try and get it right, and there is a sense of a vision and a plan, whereas I think quite a lot of managers kind of try and put their head under the parapet and it takes a little bit of courage to face up to what the staff might be feeling and thinking, but the benefit of being ready and courageous enough – if you like – to listen to what they have to say, you can suddenly generate lots of solutions and they don’t have to be massive, as you say it’s 10 minutes a day sometimes or it’s somebody who wants to be at the school gate twice a week

I: Yes

H: It’s not a massive thing

C: I mean it’s just reminded me because this year we did a piece of work where we re-communicated the reward package that everybody gets, so not just salary but actually total benefits, including all the sort of little extras that perhaps you think about, and actually the feedback from that has been fantastic because people suddenly actually look at the whole picture and say actually I’m in a good place, so actually just a gentle reminder of everything that is being provided, you know doesn’t cost any money, but actually you’re reminding people about why they came to work there and what’s good about the place

I: So you’ve kind of answered Roger Faulton’s question who says “everything you’re suggesting makes a lot of sense, firms do need to motivate their workforces and so on, but many are worried about how it’s going to impact the bottom line – what are your cost neutral recommendations?” well I think you’ve answer that haven’t you?

H: But I think also retention and sickness – sickness absence is most definitely shown to improve, both those aspects are shown to improve. Now they are costs to a business – but because they’re hidden costs, they’re not sort of – if you like frontline costs – a lot of companies really ignore those costs of recruiting, of training somebody, and so if you give them – especially your talented staff, as you were saying it’s really important at this time of recession, to keep your talented staff, because they’ll always find somewhere else to go – but if you manage to do that you’re saving ultimately a lot of money

I: Yes. I remember very, very vividly in my very first job my boss gave me a tiny, tiny amount of money to go and buy a new suit, because he knew that I loved clothes and it was my first job and couldn’t – and it was just such a wonderful gesture

H: Lovely

I: It wasn’t a huge amount of money –

H: Yes exactly

I: But I’ll never forget that really, really brilliant sort of bonding thing.

H: Yes

I: Rachel wants to know, she’s talking about benefits, motivating staff and so on – “thinking of offering a subsidised canteen” – must be quite a big organisation – “not convinced the benefits will match up to the costs.” If you could recommend only one thing – what might it be? We’ll have to guess at how big this business is but would it be a subsidized canteen?

C: Well I think for me, I think what I’d do is actually talk to the employees and find out what matters most, because you might think you’re investing some really good money there, but actually if they’d rather have a gym instead

H: Yes, yes

C: So I think the key is, you know communication, and really sort of get close to your employees, find out what makes them tick and then you’ll know it’s a good investment

I: Yes great

H: And I totally agree, and also working in many different organisations I do also find that this subject of a canteen is terribly important to people

I: Yes!

H: So ask them and then see, yes

I: Fantastic, really good advice. Thank you – we could go on and on couldn’t we?

H: Yes we could

I: It’s a really interesting subject, thank you for your very interesting perspectives. And thank you for watching, and if you’d like to find out more about that research we’ve been talking about then go to kelloggs.co.uk. See you again soon. Bye bye

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